[Un]Phased Episode 81

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, Chris rock, smith, violence, Lisa, slap, happened, Oscars, Malika, oscar, moment, thought, conversation, Jada, point, feel, academy, laughing, responding, actor

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Andréa Rodriguez, Malika Clinkscales, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

So Lisa, I know that we keep each other on the hotline through text. But on the night of March 27, I laughed until I cried when I saw the text you sent me because I was minding my own business, not paying attention to the little gold statue. And what did I get in my text messages? Did Will Smith just punch Chris Rock? That's the text I got from Dr. Ingarfield, y'all.

That's what I got. Yeah, because in true style, I missed it completely. Because I was in the kitchen. I don't know doing something irrelevant. And the sound went off and I figured, oh, my dogs just eaten the remote control or something. And I turned around to see Will Smith mouthing like silent expletives, you know? And then I was like, I feel like I just missed something. I am gonna text my friend Shaunna, because she will know.

Yes, so I was minding my own business. And the next thing I know, I see a very explicit Australian uncensored video of what just happened between Will Smith and Chris Rock. So I think we need to discuss this. In fact, I think it needs to be discussed with reinforcements because that's how deep this thing goes. Okay, so Lisa, let's get started inviting our reinforcements and decide where we land with this one. I'm Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold and I go by she her hers pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to unphased a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance. So, Lisa, I am superduper excited. I know we're not even going to have enough time to go everywhere we want to go. But I'm hyped because we have two incredible guests. One of which has already been a guest on this podcast before Malika Clinkscales, how are you my friend?

I'm well and thank you for having me back.

Awesome. Yes, the coach with the most and also and also a triathlete as well. We attempted to do the Chicago triathlon together. But the swim was not having us

that day it was not having it.

And then we also have the incomparable Andrea Rodriguez here with us, my principal research assistant with gold enterprises, but let me just say, look, she has been running five K’s since she was nine years old. Okay, so yes, we are not to be toyed with. How are you, Andrea?

Me? I'm good. I'm excited for this conversation and being on this podcast with three brilliant humans and talking poquito the cheese man, you know?

Si, si. Si. Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, so Lisa going back to my Americanized language. We're gonna spill all the tea on what's going on with Will and Chris. But yeah, what's your thing? Because Did y'all go through the I can't believe it mode because I went through that for a few minutes. But then I was like, Nah. I mean, was there a place where it like, someone had to convince you it was real, because we're talking about actors here. Right? When did we realize that it wasn't even scripted?

Well, absolutely, I'm happy to jump in here. I was watching it with my husband. And so we're following it. And then we had this look at each other like somethings wrong, like, did we just see what we and then as were gazing at each other with that, that that conversation? We turned back to the camera to see Mr. Smith’s, verbal, verbal expression being muted, and we were like, oh my god, like I don't consider myself a lip reader. But I was very fluent at lip reading that night. It was very clear. And that's when I said this is not something they planned on. This is not - this is real time. And even Chris's attempt to kind of say like, okay, like, like, you could hear it in his voice like, Oh, we got to stop whatever's happening right here. I get that. That breaking. His voice was like, “okay, I won't” you know, in terms of keeping her name out of his mouth. That's when I said okay, he's uncomfortable. He's trying to stop the bleeding so to speak. And we knew like we have a situation on our hands that no one could have ever imagined.

Huh, and Andrea how about you?

I was already sleeping in my bed. So exhausted from a day, snuggling up with my little pet bunny. And I my phone was going bing bing bing bing like all the tweets are coming in. I'm like, did that just really happened, did Will Smith just do this. And like, I don't know what is happening. So I was like, let me just open my laptop real quick. And you see all over, like, Will Smith punches Chris Rock. I was like no, he did not. And then I saw the Australian unedited version. So I think to Michael's point, I don't read lips, but when he was like, I was like, oh, that was not scripted at all. Because I have seen that so many times where, you know, yeah, you don't do that. But and then the Australian one, the Japanese one, and they put it all over Twitter and I was like, oh, yeah, that was not scripted at all. And it was so clear that the producers are trying to figure out what should we do? Should we go to break? Shall we? That's where they didn't know. And Chris Rock, I think what we see with it, he really was trying to figure out what to do next. So as like, not to make it even more uncomfortable for everybody? Mm hmm.

Well, Lisa, you're our language guru. My question, even as I'm thinking about it, because you know, Andrea, you brought up a really good point around, you know, did Will punch him did will slap him. Like, even when I saw the headlines that came out the week after even the language was inconsistent, you know, did Will punch, you know, Will punched him or Will open handed slapped him or Will accosted him like it was different language with all of the media outlets. And I'm no journalist at all. But I could clearly see the inconsistencies. And I'm like, what does the inconsistency say about how we perceive Will and or Chris, at that point, because people want to say it, okay. The slap heard around the world, that that wasn't a consistent message. It was really different. And I wonder if there was anything to that? As a non journalist?

Yeah. I don't know. Like, it's a great point. Actually, I just think folks were really taken aback by it. And particularly that Will Smith wasn't as sorted out. Like, there wasn't any apparent consequence for him in the moment. And then he gets the best actor, Oscar, which, you know, SitePoint, I thought was well deserved. And then doesn't apologize to Chris Rock in his speech but apologizes to the academy, right, which I thought was pretty interesting. So that was a, from a language point of view, that was kind of interesting. But I wonder whether the inability to define the physical assault that happened was woven into journalists not knowing how best to articulate this act of violence from someone unexpected, and also between two black men and the larger connotations, perhaps, or assumptions and stereotypes that might get pulled into it. And so every news outlets doing their own little dance there, because we know, news outlets and media outlets are primarily run by white people. Right. So I'm just speculating that that could have something to do with it.

Hmm, yeah. Well, and you know, it just, I was so confused, that made it I'm still confused to this day, because different language was used, you know, and I know that media is going to interpret things the way they want to. I was still, I mean, I'm still hearing conversations even to this day about, I'm still doubtful that it was real and not scripted. But, you know, for me, it's kind of like, okay, how, how defensible is this? Exactly? I mean, how defensible is it? Am I being too sensitive about a joke? You know, because a lot of people don't know a lot of history of black comedians. But I mean, if you go back as far as Moms Mabley, if you go back to Eddie Murphy, if you go back to Richard Pryor, this is light work compared to what they used to say about people and using the N word rampantly, and all this other stuff. I'm, I'm, I'm still torn. I'm still torn about how to even respond on what both of them did. Because as a black woman, I'm like, Okay, we're tired of being the brunt of jokes. We're tired, we're tired. But I don't condone putting your hands on anybody, like even Mr. Williams, who Will Smith portrayed said, I don't believe in violence against anyone, unless you're defending yourself. Well, was well, just I don't know. Mr. Williams. Good question. So I'm still in this, you know, whole confusion piece. But what would have been the alternative? Right? Should I don't even know how will should have responded? Or is there an option of how he could have responded?

I've thought about this a lot. And I'm gonna go ahead and for the record, say I am a huge Will Smith fan, so I'm not even going to lie. That's we go way back to his music, to Fresh Prince of Bel Air, recently listened to his audiobooks. I felt like I was hanging out with him, you know, just him being able to narrate his own book. So I'll put that disclaimer out there. And then I'm also going to critique him critically. I honestly have thought about if he had just shouted from his chair, you know, those expletives? Would that have been better? You know, because there wouldn't have been the physical violence? Would he? Would he be? Not that that's, you know, socially acceptable, but could he have expressed his verbal outrage not been threatening and getting out of his chair? Would that have been okay? You know, one can argue yes or no. I think by the time he gets out of his chair, and to confront him, something's going to happen, right? Some people have said, you know, he could have whispered in his, you know, in his ear like, man, better than, you know, and then sat down. And, you know, Chris Rock might have had this look like he just seen a ghost like, okay, like, you know, that's still considered a threat. But are there other things that could have been acceptable? And I'm going to do a tangent to your question, just to say that I think one of the reasons it's so complicated is I don't, even as you hear Will Smith and his mom reflect upon his behavior. In my opinion, he was clearly responding to something else. It wasn't just that moment. And I'm not trying to justify his behavior by any stretch. But I think when you don't deal with the root cause of your own individual issues, right, the issues of you know, feeling like a coward, the issue of not protecting your family, not protecting your mother, from the abuse that she suffered from your father, and been very public about how your personality has really been derived out of this sense of not being enough to be responsive in the moment. And so here comes this Big Willie personality, the man that jumps out of helicopters over the Grand Canyon, and the man that has this discovery, science exposure, where he goes into live volcanoes, like everything's like, I ain't scared everything and his personality and his behavior. Can I can seize the moment I can do the hardship, right. I think that could have been a demon for him in terms of him saying, How do I seize this moment in this in this time? And it's totally connected to a whole other experience. So that's a good question, Shaunna, because the question is, what was he actually responding to? And that helps to really question then what was the response? Right? Like, if you think about what was he really responding to, that then serves like the foundation for them? What was the appropriate response to that if he had taken a moment to really reel himself in? But I think he was so hell bent on not being a coward, that the big shit seemed attractive?

Well, um, you know, you're bringing up a good point Malika, because I feel like two demons were fighting each other on that stage. Because before this, I didn't know that Chris Rock had been slapped in the face and held at gunpoint, many years ago. And so the slap for him may have affected him with, you know, talking, obviously, right, ridiculously, but also throwing him back into history, right, you know, on some things that he's experienced as well. So I'm wondering if it's like two demons fighting each other there, because you have two black men who have histories that are fighting each other on a very public stage. Yes. And I also listened to Will Smith’s audio book, and I was not aware of Chris rocks. I don't know if it was a carjacking or something. But he was held at gunpoint after a slap and that's part of his history.

I don't know. Absolutely.

Well, now, Lisa, that's a good question. Because let me let me throw to you what my mom threw at me when we were having this conversation. My mother felt like the type of relationship they seem to have, should predicate his behavior. Meaning that it's been relatively well documented that Jada has done a few things with a few people in that marriage in and out of that marriage, including possibly having an open marriage. And so my mother said, why would you get up and slap somebody over a woman that you're allowing to be in an open marriage anyway? Because your care should cover multiple bases, and not just one. And I'm like, I'm not quite there with that. Because it doesn't mean that you don't love that person. That just means you have an agreement. And so you and I'm not condoning that either. That's not my style, but it clearly it is theirs, and it's their marriage to manage. So I feel like I've been inundated with a lot of messages around how many times has quote unquote, Jada, allowed Will to be humiliated. And so this one time, he stands up for her, is this an equitable relationship? And I'm like, I don't know, I don't have a good answer for you. But that that takes in the complexity once again, because like I said, at the top of the show, no, I'm not having any woman of color humiliated in my presence. No, I don't want to have that ever, in my presence. And their relationship is complicated, which I think in fact, makes us have a complicated relationship as the general public general public in their business. We’re complicated by it. So I didn't know how to reply to mama, but I just knew that it does play into the perception of what will should or should not have done. Yeah, yeah.

I just I think so many moving parts that because I, I Okay, so let me start off, like Malika. I'm a huge Will Smith fan. I will always be a Will Smith fan. There's just something about his story, his history, how far he's come along. I just, it resonates with me. When men especially men of color, people of color from marginalized communities, they don't have good growing up like it's just, and they've come so far, you know? And they're just there was so many moving parts to that because like I was overhearing some folks talk about it on the metro, and they're like, “he shouldn't have done that”. And like “violence is this” and I'm like, I'm like rolling my eyes. I'm not a believer in like, you know, violence. I lean on love and peace and love. I'm all about the love. But here's the other side of it. There are shows like love. Basketball Wives. Hip Hop, like all these other shows that have a ton of Black Folk a ton of Latino folk. They are smacking each other left and right it is sensationalized. Now is it because it’s in a stage of the academy that's predominantly sort of like kept behind this, like amazing this castle made up of people who are not represented of that. That is Will Smith, or Chris Rock, or Jada Pinkett Smith that make this even worse, because let me tell you, those shows, those reality shows. That's what sort of show that makes money so quickly, but nobody's on you're talking about that. That gets blasted all over the media, Twitter, but nobody's on here. But like, did that just really happy? No. They're like, Oh, she should have smacked him harder. Or he could have smacked him harder. So I'm just trying to figure out sort of the juxtaposition of like, Chris Rock black man. And Will Smith listening to this. He's he is laughing. That camera points directly to Jada because I wanted to watch it from beginning to end. The camera points directly to Jada after Chris Rock does that. You can see her uncomfortableness. Okay, she rolls her eyes. She is uncomfortable, like you really going to come for me like this. Will Smith catches this is Oh, he's laughing and I think Malika you said this so beautiful. You like “No, you're not gonna do that to me on national television and think you're gonna get away with it”. I don't think in a moment he was thinking, I'm Will Smith, the actor, he’s thinking, I'm Will Smith, a man who grew up watching heavy shit happen, you're not going to do that or play me like that on national television on my biggest night, when my woman is here with me. Like a man, all the stuff that black people have had to experience these last two years, and you being a black man. I'm gonna get you right now. And here comes a smack, right? And in my head. My brothers and I had talked about this. He was like, they were like, well, you know, the smack, people get smacked. When they get that, they're not deserving of a punch. Because the punch says, You're a man. A slap is more like, you're not good enough to get punched. A slap is what you're gonna get. Yes. So there were so many. I was like, yeah, they were like, Yeah, that's sort of the code that we got. I was like, Well, I'm glad I wasn't running around amok with all of them growing up in the middle of the night. But that's, those are my, my, my, my thoughts. And I think Dr. Ingarfield when you said, where's Jada’s voice in all this, it’s just kind of lost, it got lost in all of this. And it's just kind of like, I want people to sort of take a step back and just realize there's some it's not as easy as like, he slapped him and then this needs to happen. There's so many moving parts to this. Like, it's not as easy as like, let's expel him from the academy. I I personally don't believe that should happen. I think there are other repercussions that we can talk about that could happen, but I will hope that doesn't happen. But since he resigned I'm already heartbroken about that.

No, but you're bringing up a good point Andréa because I so of course with all of this happening with the Oscars, and so forth. There's been a lot of historians coming forth with information on, you know, people have been saying, Oh, well, you know, this is the most despicable thing that's ever happened to the Oscars, and it's like, hole up, go back into the history. Hattie McDaniel not being able to come through the front door to receive her Oscar and having to sit next to a wall beside her manager. That is despicable. Or John Wayne, threatening to commit violence against a Native American actress. I mean, we got plenty of history, plenty enough. And I'm not saying that to vouch for Will. I'm simply saying, let's look at this in the history of things. And remember how white supremacy has been going on all along in this whole thing? Because Lisa, it's something we kind of mentioned before when it comes to this part of me and I have to admit, and y'all take it where you want to go with this, but this is just my God's honest truth. The first thing I said to my mom when she asked me what I thought I said, Oh my god, Mama, these black men have gone out here and showed their tail in front of all these white folks we aren’t getting brought back to the Oscars. Because remember, we were just in hashtag Oscar so white, and now that more diversity is amongst the Academy. And I felt like I was having a house conversation in public with millions of eyes through a camera watching. Well, I'm like, Y'all need to have that conversation at the house. Okay. Don't have that here. Have that at the house and admittedly, and I know that my entire view on that is shaped by white supremacy. I claim that, but that was my initial response when my mom asked me is why are our people out here showing our tail and acting a damn fool in front of these white folks? I promise you, that's the first thing I thought. And of course, I have to back off of that and examine myself for why I feel that little tinge of shame. I'm not saying hold shame, because I didn't do it. But we think in community, I believe that black people think in community and underrepresented people think in their community, not just oh, we'll slap Chris. No black folks acted a fool at the Oscars.

That's absolutely, because we have to infiltrate spaces where we are the minority. And that is what people think of us. And so it wasn't that I felt so ready. It was a knee jerk reaction. It was like ah, Hell, god dang-it. I mean, literally now I've got to contend with, not that that's how I feel. But I know, they are epitomizing exactly what millions of white people already think about us. And in that moment, you do feel like you're wearing this label. Or it doesn't apply to me, because I'm a different black person. I'm above my race. And that's why you don't experience it in connection with me. So absolutely. I really, I resonated. I had the emotion before I could even pinpoint it before I could even think it I was like, Oh, this ultimate embarrassment because my people have exposed us again.

Yes, yes. And and let's take it you know, another demographic that we haven't mentioned quite yet in this conversation when it comes to the Oscars: socio economic status. So, okay, white folks who may be very ignorant, may put, quote unquote, black on black crime and all those types of things on certain people of color in a different socio economic status, right. But when you have damn near a billion dollars on one stage, and the actions to white people may seem the same way as two brothers on the street. That's when socioeconomic status doesn't matter anymore. Right? Yeah. Because, look, I was nosy when it came to the numbers. As my mom and I were talking about it. She was saying, you know, how is this going to affect Will’s career, and I looked it up. I'm like, first of all, Jada is worth 20 million by herself, Will is worth 350 million by himself. And Chris is worth a little under 250 million by himself. We're not talking about money anymore. We're not. But that's where the conundrum comes in is like, Oh, I know people are gonna be looking at black folks like “y’all are all the same, it don't matter whether you have money or not fame or not, oscar or not, y'all just gonna act a fool if given the opportunity”. And that's where that drop of shame continues to just sprinkle on me a little bit that I wish wasn't there. But we think in community, we will think in community,

to your point Shaunna to the thought that I had is Oh, Will they're about to show you that you're a Black man. You’re about to see the fallout from this, you're about to feel the true reality, not your 350 million, not your best actor, Oscar or, you know, award performance. They're going to show you systematically through institutional racism and the penalties that you're still a black man in America. Right. And I think with the talk of what the Netflix show being on hold, and Bad Boys four, you know, allegedly being on hold even though they say Well, that's not really true. It's conceptual. The irony is it's this this sense of America has never shamed violence. We shame it but yet we thrive on it. And if you think about his depth of work, Bad Boys 1, 2, 3, now four, it's the created violence right? Independence Day, Wild Wild West. It's violence and so it's almost laughable now. Ali, right, Ali itself, so now a slap a Will slap becomes abhorrent to millions of dollars on produced violence for and the children have seen it and the FCC I think they said 66 People complain at the FCC because my child - saw for real, y'all. Again, not supporting it, not condoning it, but I just think it's gone a bit. I mean, yeah.

guys what you just said that about the kids! The kid saw the violence! You know what I want to do, like, why don’t you be quite please. The kid saw the violence. Let's not use that line. Okay, because I feel like they they're trying to weaponize something that's happened and not understanding the complexity behind it. It's not as simple as like, well, he slapped, do you know why this happened? Can we just take this, go back and just like, talk through this and figure out all the moving parts of it because what about Jada Pinkett Smith? What about I mean, to your point Malika? Like the violence, it is sensationalized, but it's because it's on this night of the Oscars of like this elitist way of thinking, that nothing should go wrong. You know, everyone has to just take it. No, I think I think he was. It wasn’t Will Smith the actor, I think it was, Will Smith, a man, the black man. And I think what, what I am saddened about is that he's going to experience that, like the fallout, we're slowly starting to see that Netflix and like the movie, like it's just load. And I just, I hope that there's an opportunity for, for society to be like, Will Smith can come back from this.

I think there's one last point I know we have to transition to exit. But I also think they've talked a lot about the what Chris Rock was able to maintain in the moment, right? How he made a punch line out of actually getting slapped in the face, how he was able to keep the program moving. And then the stuff he did behind stage to actually refuse for Will Smith to be removed. And the actions by the Academy actually were because, because Chris Rock said, No, I do not want him arrested. No, I do not want him dragged out of his seat, he was still able to in some kind of way to hold tension for what the night was and the optics on all those subsequent odds. And I think how he was able to do that, as you say, you know, and remain professional amongst so much turmoil and apologize to the host and the individuals to say this moment went completely left, in a way that it shouldn't. And you know, we don't have time to dig into this. But I'm like, what would happen if Chris Rock had just got up and delivered the documentary award. And not actually took time to adlib and make fun of people. Like the job was really to introduce the Best Actor for the documentary and Quest Love win, what would happen if he had just come out and done that, instead of picking on people to actually tell inappropriate jokes, the whole moment might have not happened. So there's some responsibility for Chris Rock in a way to.

Yeah, well, I know Lisa, Malika and Andréa have already said that they are still super fans of Will, I think we should all kind of land on are we still fans? And if so, you know why? Maybe? Because I think that's where, you know, there's a little bit of a division a line in the sand, if you will, in regards to that. So, Lisa, what do you think, and I know that you've been a fan in the past, are you still gonna be a fan? Or are you changing your thoughts on that?

I'm still a fan. I went through a whole like developmental process in the space of like, two hours after it happened in terms of like, originally, I wanted to justify it. And I was like, No, that's not okay. And then I was like, Well, what about Jada? And then I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's all of these implications of two black men in a white space. And what is this going to do? You know, ultimately, I think our conversation has deepened my understanding of the complexity of these issues, and I think it would be wrong to cast Will Smith aside, I think that would be disingenuous. I think that would be troublesome. So no, I still kind of love him.

I still kind of love him. I love that. I love that. Andréa, what are you saying still a super fan or feelings changed?

Still a super fan I stand by him. I think he has a lot to give. I think he does amazing work. I think his emotional impact in movies is not just who he is in movies, it's just who he is outside of that. And I think if society can look at him differently, understand all of who Will Smith is apart from the $350 million then we can start thinking a little bit more differently about what it means for this to have happened in society. And the larger point. I'm with you Will Smith I got you boo I do.

Malika what say ye

Still a Will Smith fan. Running joke between my husband and I, is that Will Smith is my first husband is Will Smith. So even he knows that right? But I can also say that I as I look at how this unfolds, I'm troubled by how we have to position celebrities in such a high space, right? That can good people do bad things can Will Smith be an amazing actor with with three decades of robust work and contribution to the academy and had a lapse of judgment and did some things that was totally inappropriate and inexcusable, but yet we need to have people perfect. And that allows us in our lives to be imperfect because we have this group or suite of people that are like Messiah level. Right? And so my, my critique has been, why do we do that to people? Can Yes, it was egregious. But is he still human? Is he still? He puts on his pants every day like, like the rest of us leg by leg, right? He still is a he's an actor. He's a he's a father. And so no, he should not be excused. But should his whole body of work be damned? Because he messed up? How many of us mess up? What's What's your biggest mess up? If we saw your biggest mess up on national international TV? What would that look like? So I still have empathy for him in a way that I would want empathy for myself.

Yeah, I walk away from Will with a maybe, I can't give a absolute super fan or not, I'm still on the fence with it. Because, number one, I can't imagine my life without the Bad Boys trilogy. And without Ali, everyone on the planet knows that Muhammad Ali is my icon, if you will, when it comes to social justice, and so forth. So yeah, I got a thing for that just by, by proximity of will to the to Muhammad Ali himself. And I'm in a place where I want accountability. I'm raising two sons, 11, and seven. And if they walk up on somebody and slap the piss out of them, they get to go home for a week. And there's accountability for what they do when they do it. And so if I'm expecting my 11 year old and my seven year old, to behave a certain way that I would expect a 50 something year old international icon who's had 30 years of experience being in the public eye, to make a different decision. And so for me, my hope is that his Oscar for King William does not get taken away, because that was something that he had already performed prior to all of this happening. So I believe that that should stay. Before he resigned, I wasn't quite sure whether he should remain a member of the Academy or not, because I assumed that they had some type of values and standards by how they comport themselves. And so I do think there should be some accountability there. But I am of the camp similar to you Malika and Andrea, I don't want to throw the baby out in the bathwater, as far as oh, let's throw everything out because of one mistake, because Goodness gracious. If anyone did that to me, nah, I got so many mistakes. It's it's enough for you not even to know my name. And so given that, where does the grace come in? And how do we get to a place where, you know, Jada said it herself on her Instagram? This is a season of healing. So I want to see exactly what that looks like. Because I know, Will was already on a bit of a trajectory with that, given his book and some other things he's done. I'm just wondering if this gives a grand opportunity for him to do some deeper work so that the demons don't get to fight on the stage yet again, because we know he will be on other stages beyond this one. Right. So anyway, Lisa, I think we had an excellent podcast, because let me tell you, I have been stewing over this topic forever. And I needed an outlet to have this conversation. So thank you all for bringing things to my mind that I hadn't thought of. Yeah, it was a good one when

I agree. And, you know, I just want to underscore why we wanted to have this conversation with you all, because this issue has been seen around the world, right? And everyone has an opinion, even people that probably shouldn't have one, have one. And you're going to have these conversations in your endurance sports spaces, right? Because I would be shocked if it has not already come up. And this seemingly clear cut issue, I think we're all trying to articulate is not clear cut at all, and is deep and messy, and troubling and historic and contextual, and all of the words you want to add to that list. So think about that, when something like this happens or something akin to this happens in your endurance sport club, right? How about not jumping to a conclusion and actually taking the time to pass through it? To understand that there's depth there.

Unphased, a podcast produced by Live feisty media and supported by the outspoken women and triathlon Summit.

Edited and produced by the fabulous Amelia Perry.

Email us at info@unphasedpodcast.com and find us on social @tritodefi @doctorgoldspeaks or @outspokenwomenintri. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shaunna thanks for listening. Stay Unphased folks, see you next time