[un]phased Episode 74

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coach, women, people, thinking, joe rogan, lisa, wearing, pink, white, professionalism, disrupted, feel, inappropriate, showing, pants, uncomfortable, folks, trevor noah, sydney, attire

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

So Lisa, I have been somewhat following the trolls in regards to coach Sidney Carter and the non issue issue of her attire on the sideline of a women's basketball game. And I'm feeling real Serena ish about this topic, where once again, we have a woman who is targeted by someone else's discomfort in response to what she's chosen to wear. And I'm just, I'm done with at least I'm done. I am so done with people's critiques, right? I just think we need to get it all out. Because this is one of a laundry list of women who have been targeted for doing nothing but a great job in their role, minding their own business, and looking and feeling great while doing it. And it sucks. I'm just I'm tired. I'm tired.

Yeah, yeah. And I think the quote unquote people who are critiquing her, probably primarily white dudes is my guess. Because it just feels like a veiled attempt to discredit her because she is an American woman coaching basketball that is historically the domain of white men, and they're pissed about that. So how do they undercut her? Well, let's just protect her clothing because that's acceptable.

Yeah, that's low hanging fruit to go ahead and target her. So I think we need to dissect this and really think about what this says about the critics. Right. So let's let's dive in. I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa englefield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance. So Lisa, I actually heard about the story before I saw what Coach Sydney Carter was wearing. Right. So I kind of did this in reverse order. And I was underwhelmed when I saw what Coach Sydney was wearing. I pulled up the picture, and saw that she was fully covered from neck down fully covered, wearing a white turtleneck. pink pants of pink ribbon due to some cause on her sweater. And it was claimed to be quote, wildly inappropriate. What? No, no way. No, I I'm expecting skin I'm expecting, you know, whatever stereotype of a man, you know that a man would think. And I felt I didn't even find the stereotype. Lisa, that's why I'm like, What in the world is going on here? What's going on mildly

inappropriate, dear Lord. Oh,

and the things that they pointed out that were wildly inappropriate, quote, unquote, were, you know, her braids were too long, because she had very long braids in her hair. She had clear heels on and so then the question was, well, can you wear those on hardwood floor? The the pants that she wore, they claimed were too tight, for example. And I'm thinking to myself really, really? Is this what we're talking about now? Because, you know, again, this goes back to the shallow conversation of what Coach Carter was wearing, rather than her credentials, right? She's got a long resume. A long one, but we're talking about pants here and heels really? Get out of here.

Like, okay, I saw the picture, and was really confused. Because I, you know, I didn't I mean, outside of the pants being pink, and they are shiny. Not that I don't I'm like trying to find like, what possibly could it be? Right? Because I see. Yeah, white, white hot pink pants and heels. So then I was like, is it the heels that people are concerned about? Because she can't like run around on the court. But I don't Yeah, I've lost for words in trying to understand. Other than, you know, like I had said in the intro, it's just a veiled attempt to undercut her because she is creeping into a space that she's not wanted, right? Mmm hmm. You're right, like and then there's more to the story in terms of the pink right because it sounds like the pink was purposeful.

No, yeah, that's right. And based on the social media that I looked at, based on Sydney's actual tweeted post of herself, because this is what She does after every game, game 22 She posted four photos. One of them happened to be her standing on our own. But then there was another picture that showed the bench. And the the women had pink sneakers on for the game. There was another coaching staff member that also had on a pink dress. Clearly, the pink was somatic. There was a theme going on there. So okay, so there couldn't be something wrong with the pink. Right. So what in the world is the problem here? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. So there obviously is something going on with the pink. But that is, you know, suspiciously absent from all of the commentaries. So she's either being sexual or over sexualized, right, because she's very bright. And we have a bunch of men talking about how beautiful she is, and how curvaceous and lovely right? And then all you have another group of men talking about how it's inappropriate attire for a coach on the sidelines of a basketball game, which is just the stupidest argument. And I almost feel like we don't need to get that any more air time. Right. Right. Right. You know, and it just is another example of the kind of shit that women of color have to put up with in terms of working harder, you know, having to have such a pristine background and reputation to get somewhere that a mediocre white dude can get quite easily.

Yeah, so the scarcity model, right? There's not enough coaching spots for women to go around. And if we're going to get give one, it's going to go to a white woman, and then we can't possibly have a woman of color be better than the white woman or potentially exceed that person's leg. That's right.

That's right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, for me, that's, you know, problematic. And unfortunately, we have folks like Dawn Staley, who, you know, we have a great cadre of women of color that are in coaching. But, you know, again, it's, they might show up in something different, and they might not say a word to them, or about them because they are dressing to whomever's definition of professionalism. But apparently, a white turtleneck, pink pants and heels aren't considered as someone's level of professionalism. So there has to be something wrong with Coach Carter. Right out of here. Yeah, out. You know that. That's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's absolutely stupid. And I'm guessing white male coach shows up in a pink suit, or pink jeans or pink pants of some kind, because he and the team are honoring, like breast cancer awareness or something that has pink as the color he is going to get uploaded would be my guess. Right.

There you go. There you go. Because the first thing even even if someone felt he looked ridiculous, the first thing would not be judgment, it would be oh, there must be some cause going on. Right? Yeah. Yep. Rather than personal attack of there's something wrong with her showing up thinking that she can wear that and that's professional.

Come on. Yeah. Yeah, that's just

Yeah. And you know, and to speak to, you know, the, the men's point of view here now, I will, you know, publicly appreciate a former coach at Texas a&m, former assistant coach Bob Starkey. He came to you know, make it clear that wait a minute, I know y'all are critiquing this and social media, but he said, quote, Sidney is even more beautiful on the inside. And I'm an amazing woman and one of my heroes, in fact. So I do appreciate that there's some male allies out there, but frankly, it shouldn't even be necessary. And based on that man's tweet, that's telling me that people Art once again looking at certain standards of beauty, professionalism, again, that over sexualized piece that is said without being said, it feels very Serena ish to me. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with Sydney and everything to do with people being uncomfortable and needing to blame it on someone. Right? Mostly might white men being uncomfortable and needing to blame it on someone?

Yeah. And then you've also got Okay, so let's say so the former coach ally, who made that comment, if his comment, suppressed or reduced the amount or the level of critique she was getting, that's really interesting, too, right? Because then you have a man. And his is more valuable than her saying, I'll wear what I want, like, I'm gonna be me or you know, like, right,

right. So,

I mean, I don't know what the effect of the tweet was his tweet, but I would guess that some people were like, oh, okay, like, it's not enough just for her to say something you need to be.

Yeah. And I would be interested to know, which came first, that former assistant coaches tweet or her her tweet, or her Instagram post, she did post saying, Thank you to everyone for your support and kind words over the last few days, representation matters. As a black woman in coaching, I take pride in showing that people who look like me, don't have to diminish our light to appeal to others whose opinions never mattered anyway. And then she goes on to say, I will continue to unapologetically be myself, apply pressure, and show that black women can express our individuality while doing our jobs at a high level. Right. And so, you know, she made that comment, which I think is is, you know, kind of said it better. I mean, just, I love how she approached it. And I wish she didn't have to approach it at all. Because it should not have been unnecessary statement to defend herself. And so I just feel like it's it's non news news. And so yeah, I just feel like this is a huge mirror reflection on anyone and everyone who felt uncomfortable looking at the photos that she's been posting after every game anyway, this was not a new thing.

Right? So let's switch the focus from her then to the trolls, to the people who are finding that they have a problem with this. And thinking about what does it mean when we judge others for a number of things, but in particular, what folks are wearing, and I can share a story related to this. So yesterday, I was at Tarjay. And I saw a presumably mother and child at the cash desk checking out and the child. I don't know how old probably in her teens, white couple they she was wearing school, I guess I don't know, she I'm reading her as a woman, she they may not be very, very short shorts. And I had, like this immediate reaction was like, Ooh, that's an interesting dress choices also snowed here, so it's not warm. And so the the, let her leg was completely exposed. And then I caught myself in that moment. I was like, okay, when you're making a judgement, it's not up to you. Just because you might not choose to wear that doesn't mean that this person that you're watching doesn't have the right to wear whatever they want, right to express themselves in whatever way they feel. And Right, right. Mom is fine with that mom is supportive. Not that that necessarily matters. But then I kind of went down the rabbit hole of well, what if that was my kid, and someone came up to me and told me that it was inappropriate, what my child was wearing, how would I respond? And then I was like, I wonder whether that's ever happened and the mama censors. Anyway? Probably too much there for a podcast, but Right, right. Right. Like there's this, because we've been socialized in a certain way about what is and is not appropriate, particularly with dress in certain spaces. And in certain bodies, that we you know, we flinch, we have this immediate response. And I think part of the struggle, the AI and things like this, and bias is catching it is catching it before you move forward with that critique.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Well, and sadly, I can say that I've been there. You know, I've I've been there in those situations where, again, being the target, you know, that was one of the things that I found. And actually one of the reasons why I took a hiatus from my particular denomination after being very young, coming into my denomination, relatively young as a, as clergy as someone who was ordained as a deacon in my wider denomination. And one of the first things I heard which was very interesting, actually came from another woman who was about The older generation that said to me, it's very inappropriate, Shanna, for you to wear pants as a practicing ordained clergy member in a congregation. Now, I thought that was very interesting, because I had come from a, how can I say I'd come from a predominantly campus ministry setting, which is usually very small, you don't have these very elaborate and ornate churches and places of worship. Usually they are storefront, very small. If you have a pulpit, it's very close to your congregation. And one of the things that you don't necessarily want in such close quarters is that you don't want a skirt or a dress, because obviously, you may want to be covered a bit more, so that folks can, you know, see right up your crotch and all of that. And so, it was kind of the converse of what they were thinking that actually I was wearing pants to be modest not to be defiant. But it was seen as defiance from another woman from an older generation. And my immediate, angry thought wasn't even personally about me, it was more so about this is a fucking diversion, right? Why are we talking about Shanaze pants when we have mission work to do, we're planning to go overseas, we're feeding the poor, we have a literal domestic violence shelter. That's a 501 C three nonprofit of this congregation and you're worried about my attire right now. And that's when I knew very clearly it literally had nothing to do with me and everything to do with the person's offense or or level of offense to what they felt was inappropriate. And I guess she could have called me wildly inappropriate to, but not appropriate or professional by their standards for the role. And I chose to opt out. And I kind of feel like Sydney is doing something similar, where she's like, I'm not, I'm not entertaining this foolishness, because the more I'm entertaining, the foolishness, the less I'm doing my actual job, which I am highly qualified to do. Thank you very much. So I don't have time to engage with all trolls. I'm gonna give you one post and keep it moving. And that's it. And, you know, it really is a reflection of, even as we sit here and say, What makes us uncomfortable and why. And what does that mean? Because yeah, I can say, yeah, that attire may make me uncomfortable. But if I'm truly about Dei, I'm gonna fight tooth and nail to make sure that you have the right and freedom to dress however you want, regardless of my comfort or not, because it's not about my comfort. It's about your comfort in your own skin. I want you to be comfortable and safe. Right. And so, you know, where's the priority? Self, or others and usually itself, and from what I'm hearing with the men that have the critique of Sydney is all about self. Sydney, you are making me uncomfortable by what you have on right now.

Yeah. Yeah, framed in professionalism. It's really interesting with this, this intersection of professionalism and sport, right. Mm hmm. You know, I feel like I'm unpacking this as I'm talking because it just popped into my head. And I think about, like, where are the rules about what is or is not professional attire for sports personalities, coaches, athletes, right, I'm thinking, you know, we have our uniforms. Right, right. Um, and then, you know, I'm thinking about the Olympics, actually. And the women that were disqualified from that ski event, because their outfit was

to Yes, yes, yes. Yes, absolutely. At least I saw that story, actually. I forget what outlet it was on, but I saw that story. And for me, the jury is kind of out on that story. Because, you know, we hear so much about women's attire being too tight in many circumstances. But this one, I think it was something related to aerodynamics, and that yeah, the looseness of the suits could in some way, give a benefit aerodynamically. Usually, when we think when we think of loose in in the triathlon community, we're thinking drag, so we don't want it to be loose. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, no, that probably slow you down. But this case, I'm still trying to figure it out. I need to read a little bit more. Lisa.

Yeah. And I haven't read kind of the social media Milou in response to that, I definitely seen some headlines that are there some outrage around it because it was five women, no men happened to be in light. And these were suits I guess they had warning other Olympic competition. So there's nothing new or different about the suits that they were wearing. So it felt arbitrary perhaps. You know, so that's, that's an intersection with a With a professional outfit and sport, right, but the the argument there is that the outfit gives or would have given these women some kind of speed advantage. Right? Right. But when you're thinking about coaching, or you know, this, I'm thinking about the young woman in that high school that was a couple of years ago now African American woman who was disqualified from winning that race, because her swimsuit was too tight, was a high school race. And so and so it was about the right so then you've got this kind of like professionalism, and swimming. And these imposed ideas of what isn't, is not modest, that has absolutely jack shit to do with her capacity to swim in a race, it wasn't really about any kind of advantage, right? And you're disqualifying someone on the basis that

20:57

you feel like, she's

honest, like I don't, you know, kind of this weird because it's the sport is, you know, it's not professional, professional attire isn't like a suit or business casual, or what we might consider this white dominated idea of professionalism, you've got all these different outfits. Right. So, so interesting to me about why these trolls and these detractors, their own discomfort is just curious in spirit. Right.

Right. Right, exactly. Well, you know, I've been locked in and again, here we go with the clash of race and gender and what's appropriate and what's not. You know, again, this is not a new story, it feels like Groundhog's Day a little bit. But, you know, I've seen plenty of photos of white, reading, white reading female coaches on the sideline in heels. And very few people really mentioned it, you know, they kind of looked a little bit, but it wasn't like have huge social media Fallout, it's like, oh, women are here, they're going to coach and dress the way they want to coach, let's keep it moving. You know, to what level I almost feel like the, the intersectionality of the identities that continue to pile on will determine how outraged people are, right? Like I'm waiting on the next level, like, let's say, the next level will be a trans woman of color coach that shows up wearing something that somebody is uncomfortable with, like, I just feel like it keeps piling up and piling up. Yeah. And the problem is never that person the problem, right? It is the norm that's been there. And now all of a sudden, oh, my goodness, now we have, you know, we have title nine. And so women are showing up, and they're showing up exactly how they want to have that. Right. And so, you know, I think, you know, we really need to kind of hold, you know, what the, I would even say what the pre Title Nine norms were to now what they are? And what does that mean for individual statements and not caring about how anyone responds to them?

Yeah, and then, you know, I'm thinking about my Tarjay example. And it was, um, it was like, it was unconscious, in the sense that it was instantaneous my judgment. Like, I can't, it didn't build it was just suddenly there. Right. And then, yeah, I caught myself. And I think, you know, I probably haven't caught myself on every judgmental occasion, certainly. But how do so all these people that are tweeting and complaining and attacking, you know, how then in sport, where this isn't an uncommon issue, right. I mean, it's been in the media and in the culture, they have around the washing at treatment of women at any, any place in sport and how they're judged by how they look or what they're wearing. I mean, so this is not like a novel thing. So how do we get folks to realize it's a it's a mirror, right? If they have that gut, kind of trained like PABX Pavlov's dog or whatever that thing is, you know, religion judgment, how how are we then encouraging people to catch themselves and then think about why they're responding that way?

Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, and and, you know, usually what happens. My my favorite word these days, Lisa is Disrupt. You know, usually what's happening is that people are being disrupted meaning that we all have been unconsciously used to seeing the the white guy coming out on the floor with his paper balled up in his hand with a suit and tie on and walking in and that's what we've all been groomed to see and recognize without even naming it. So the millisecond anyone and shows up with anything different from that unconscious bias, all of a sudden, it's a big deal. And it's a disruption literally to our brain to say, wait a minute, it's almost like looking outside and seeing that snow is red like, no, it shouldn't be because we've unconsciously known that snow is identifiably and exactly white, right? Well, coaching has been, you know, unchallenged as white and male for so long that now that it is challenged as non white, and not male all the time. And that comes along with a particular style. It's literally disrupting our brains where we have to process something different that we haven't gotten used to processing yet. So I love it. You know, I think that's where, you know, we we get the opportunity, as people holding the mirror up to ourselves to say, oh, yeah, Shauna, I know that you've spent 20, some years watching March Madness, and you've primarily seen, you know, 90%, white males walking in with their seats on once that 10% comes in. Don't rush to judgment, but rush to understanding. And also to be clear on what the purpose is, the purpose really isn't a fashion show anyway. It's the game, right and the credentials of the person. And so yeah, I think it takes a little bit of reprogramming for all of us. But that that comes with that mirror, and thinking, Oh, I'm being disrupted right now. Yeah. And getting comfortable with doing that often.

Yeah. And a willingness to recognize that, right? Because I think you're so easily able to accept the status quo as neutral, more normal. And then, you know, pink trousers and a white turtleneck become wildly inappropriate in the context of what is normal and neutral for that role. Which, you know, it's just, you know, before you and I got on the podcast, we're talking about it. And I'm just like, I don't even know, I don't even know what to say, it's just stupid, right? Yeah, for the intelligent critique. But it's like, do you even take a second critics to sit back and recognize the emptiness and ridiculousness of the things that you're saying? Like any self reflection, or whatsoever?

None? None? None. And that's where I appreciate what we call people to do as they listen to our podcast every week, is to think through, what are you doing? What is your reaction? How are you personally being disrupted. And sitting with that a bit versus pointing the finger in the other direction of because I feel like all of this is, is blaming coach Sydney for disrupting our unconscious bias, when actually we should say, Thank you for disrupting our unconscious bias. Now we can continue to be open and embrace when those those disruptions happen, because they need to happen, right? If we can't say we want more women in sport, and we want especially more women in levels of power in coaching, but then have a problem with how they show up. Right? Right. Yeah, no sense.

We'll give you this little tiny box. And that's why you have to stay. So right, right. I mean, and I'm giving you the space, and there's only enough space for one of you. Yeah,

there you go. There you go. And that Yes. And that leads to performative measures, which that's a whole nother podcast, right, Lisa? Gotcha. Well, let's get into the the Hell yeah, the hell nah, I feel like this whole episode has been a hell nah. All to itself. But we we've got more people. We've got more. Let's get into it, pal. Yeah. Hell no. So just a quick Hell yeah, for this week. Kudos. And congratulations to Aaron Jackson, the first African American woman to win a speed skating medal. At the Winter Olympics in Beijing. When I saw this, I was hyped. I was really happy. And when I got further into her story, you know, Lisa, you and I, we spend a lot of time trying to understand why people are just so ridiculous, most of the time. But here's the story about someone who's not ridiculous. Kudos to Aaron Jackson, but also kudos to her teammate. So Aaron Jackson had a slip during her trial and missed going to Beijing by one slot. And her teammate gave up her slot in order for her to be able to go to Beijing like it gave me goosebumps when I read that story of the graciousness and humility of that teammate that I mean, that's a true teammate right there that's willing to give up possibly a once in a lifetime experience in order to be Olympian. So, kudos to Erin and her teammates for just really showing up and showing out for the US Olympic team. So congratulations on bringing home gold.

Yeah, yep, she did the right thing. Nice. Okay, so our hell now, how could we possibly not comment on this? Right? It is the Joe Rogan saga. And who know what this is, it will take you no more than about 10 seconds on Google to find a litany of articles about Joe Rogan. And his show on Spotify, and how folks are reacting to his perpetuation of disinformation about COVID-19. And vaccinations, but also, I'm well, we're going to focus on how not is on his prolific use of the N word, historically, throughout his shows. So there's been a number of artists, musical artists who have taken their product off of Spotify and indie Ari also put together a compilation of clips from his show, because there's also on YouTube or it's filled, and where the N word has been used by either him or his guests. And so that was broadcast and that obviously went viral and got a lot of attention. And that precipitated Joe Rogan to apologize. Um, so what do we think about that? Shauna?

Well, I, you know, I thought, I thought we were done with this conversation, Lisa, I mean, I thought we were done with the N word conversation. Joe Rogan, it's, it's interesting to me because I, I feel like I should be an apology afficionado, right. Like, I'm always looking at how people apologize, because I want to be able to do it better. I suck with apologies. And so I'm always studying them to try to figure out what works especially with these types of missteps that happen all the time. And look, I'm giving major signs to Joe Rogan. Because once again, I feel like the apology is reactionary and performative. Because when India arry puts together a compilation that basically drags out all the receipts of Joe Rogan using the N word and that in and of itself, elicits a response that tells me that you would not have apologized on your own if it had not been for someone dragging your dirty laundry out in the street, and now you need to make some corrections. And you know, given the demographics of his listenership 71% male, and, you know, these are folks that are kind of split between high school, college grads, etc. To me, I'm thinking to myself, you know, this gentleman has always been there kind of pandering around to his audience. And I agree with Trevor Noah on this, once Joe Rogan stepped out of his lane and got into, you know, a main street of individuals, he realized that we're not putting up with that. We're not tolerating it. And we're not saying it's okay. And you need to be accountable for what you've allowed and what you've said. So, yeah, kudos to India re for pulling out all the receipts. But Joe Rogan Mm

hmm. No, no, I know. And it's tough, right? Because Spotify won't can him because they have some ridiculous multi million dollar contract with him. And another point that Trevor Noah had made was related to how I believe Joe Rogan had said something like he didn't use the N word to be racist. You know, I'm not really more in what context it would be used. Other than that, and he was using it in reference to other comedians who had used it. But that's not the only way. Right. But the piece that Trevor Noah made was that he knew it would be funny, right? He knew the use of the word funny. Because he knows his audience. And that's the problem because this connection with race, or racism and comedy, have a long, long history in the United States. And as a white man, he absolutely knows that right? Because absolutely right into a system of white supremacy that absolutely positions, folks of color as comical in certain ways.

Mm hmm. Absolutely. And he knew what he was saying, and I'm sorry, but Joe Rogan, you cannot hang out in the black comedic royalty of red fox and Richard Pryor who used that language even as it makes me uncomfortable as a black person because my ear is just not used to hearing it. So when you might see a snip of red fox or Richard Pryor stand up. It is even a little hard to hear. But even with that, Joe Rogan, you cannot put your name in that list of prolific black comedians who have used that word to make their living, not allowing it just not so. Shame on you Joe Rogan. Shame on you.

Unfazed, a podcast produced by feisty media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon summit

edited and produced by the fabulous Lindsey Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at outspoken women in try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shauna thanks for listening. Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.