[un]phased Episode 78

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

endurance sport, midlife crisis, lisa, people, midlife, women, sport, pandemic, triathlon, years, folks, thinking, life, feel, color, men, predatory, ironman, white, part

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

Okay, so I think I'm having a midlife crisis.

Oh, no. Wait a minute. Is this a laugh to keep from crying? Or do we have like real life symptoms? Are you going out to buy the the proverbial Ferrari what's going on?

Whatever, enough money to buy a proverbial Ferrari, but I certainly am, like constantly looking at things to buy, but nothing that extreme.

Right, right, right, right.

Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. And I feel like at this age, I should probably know that answer. So then I'm like, Oh, it must be midlife crisis.

There you go. Yeah. So the, the myth that we need to have it all together by a certain age. And if not, we just might as well just, it's like that meme where you throw all the papers in there like this and just walk off? Yeah, I gotcha. I gotcha. Well, you know, it is Women's History Month. And I am just curious now because usually when I hear of midlife crisis, it's always kind of attached to the men's identity rather than us. And so I'm like, let's talk about this because this could be interesting. I mean, we're not going to diagnose you today, Lisa, but I do think you're bringing up a great point. Okay. I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa englefield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance. Alright, Lisa, so what do we know about this midlife crisis thing? Because, you know, I've heard of the Ferrari I've heard of, you know, men having the girlfriends and at the very least for women, the only thing that I ever remember hearing about a midlife crisis is a Dorothy's born act on Golden Girls being told to go color her hair, and she would feel better. Literally, I that's all I can think of in relationship to a midlife crisis and women. So I was interested. Now, that is

kind of funny, because I did just get color by hair. And I got bangs cut too. And I haven't had bags, which in England, we would call fringes. Oh, I was a kid. And I don't color my hair because then I can't donate it. But I was like, I'm not gonna donate my hair for a little while. I'm just gonna so I went with a pinky ready. rose gold color. So I'm right, right in lines and with what you have heard about the symptoms of a midlife crisis?

Oh, my goodness. Now see, I, I cut all my hair off. And then one of my girlfriends said to me, she sent me this quote, I forget who it was by but it said something to the effect of when a woman cuts her hair. She's about to change her life or something connected to that. Totally a positive sentiment. So I don't know, we could go either way with the haircut and color, Lisa? Yeah. But look, what what do we know about a midlife crisis, though? Because I realized that it's kind of like this, you know, kind of a wandering type situation where you're kind of figuring things out, you know, you know that you don't have it figured out and it's kind of like, do I give up on trying to figure it out? Or how do I construct or reconstruct my life here? Are you feeling some of that or what's going on here?

Yeah, I am. And I also think what you mentioned in the intro, you know, around kind of that archetype of midlife crisis is whenever I hear that phrase, midlife crisis, I think of a dude who is cheating on his partner and buys a red fast car, right? Like, I feel like very, very difficult, but I feel like that is just the image that is been pushed. So then if women feel similarly right, feel like they're flailing or whatever, then I would bet that a lot of people are not even identifying it. A lot of women are not even identifying it as a midlife crisis. Right. So I say I have a midlife crisis in jest. Because partly because I think what that means for women has never really been explored in any significant way to the point where you and I could say, boom, this is what it looks like for a woman right? We could go there to the stereotype with men, but we can't do that with women necessarily outside of the hair color or the haircut maybe.

Right, right. Right. Well, and that's what's really curious because, you know, when we look at some of the You know, the data you know, Lisa, and I love the data. The data tells us that midlife crises are diagnosed across men and women almost equally 13% for women and 15% for men, but it seems like we only have good descriptors for what men experience and almost no description of what women experience, which I think is really interesting. And, you know, I wonder whether women may experience midlife crises in such a way that, you know, it's so confusing, they're not quite clear what they're experiencing, you know, whether it's a, I'm unhappy with my partner, or I'm unhappy with my job, or I'm unhappy with my body, I need to do something or, you know, one of the articles that we read about was, you know, quote, unquote, midlife crisis feelings, especially with a woman and the emptiness and not having the caretaking of children to distract them from whatever they're feeling. And so, you know, I think all of this is interesting, because like, every element of this is questionable gender, age, means level of access all these different things. It's like, okay, just like you mentioned earlier, how do we diagnose and deal with this when we don't have the coins in the bank to get the proverbial Ferrari? Like, what's, what are our next steps here? I don't know. I have no idea. Well, and

you had said to me, what is even midlife? Right? what point do we put a pin in a number or a range? Right? And the years, right was? Well, all the informational websites out there some good, some bad, have different ranges? Right. And then I think that that range is most likely modeled off of white people, and probably white men would be my guess.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, as soon as I looked at the, the average, for from one of them, the average was what 45 to 65. Right. And depending on your gender, depending on your race, and definitely, depending on your socioeconomic status, and where you may physically live, that number is drastically different. You know, if you're a man of color, that's going to be much lower, then you know, a white male, or even a white female, for that matter. And so that's when, you know, race, and gender and socioeconomic status. And, you know, even racism, environmental racism may come in, because you may live in an area of the country where people don't live very long, you know. And so, I think all of this is fascinating. And especially to I think, what was fascinating, when we looked at some of these numbers, there were a lot of folks that lived beyond 100 that are outside of the US, you know, Japan and France, for example. And so, you know, part of me is thinking, Okay, what doesn't allow us in the US to live a long time? Living a long time here?

I don't know, do you have like, you know, 100 years to talk about that? Right?

Look, we got to talk fast, because I don't know. I mean, I just, you know, I've been very fortunate where, you know, my, quote, unquote, youngest grandparent passed away at 88 years old. And I know that is a huge anomaly compared to most, my last living grandparent is 96. And will hopefully, turn 97 in August. And so I know that that's not the reality for most people. I'm hopeful that that is me. And so I'm around midlife for 80 something 90 something right now. But I know that's not the case for most people. And what in the world do we do about it? Are we using, you know, are we using endurance sport to get us to through and beyond that midlife crisis? Or is some of our midlife crisis because our identity has changed in regard to sport? We got a lot going on. And we haven't even factored in, in the pandemic yet. In this conversation.

Oh, gosh, yeah. And I do so you know, the yardstick or the proverbial yardstick that things are measured on is the is the white dude who is middle to upper class probably, and, you know, everyone else has been completely left out of that equation. And all of those socio cultural environmental factors are going to make a huge difference. And then, you know, I think about women in particular or folks who identify as women and the pressure around aging and looks and body and being considered attractive and all of those external pressures and I wonder how that affects people's engagement in endurance sport, right? Whether they take up a sport change sports, that sort of thing. Because when I again when I think about kind of a midlife crisis, This archetype, it's also the white dude doing an Ironman, you know? Like, I don't really? Yeah. literature or imagery that is representative of that 45 to 65 year old woman taking up a goal. I mean, it's there. It's there. Right? And I, I do see it in the sense because I'm looking for it. But it's not mainstream in the same way that that image of the white guy with the car or the Ironman or the 100 mile race or whatever is elevated, you know. So it I am curious to understand what does it mean for women at this midpoint in their life, whatever range that is, in terms of those external pressures around looks, and body and attractiveness, and the correlation with taking up sport or doing something different actively?

Yeah, well, and you know, I'm even thinking about the differences, Lisa, between, you know, let's consider if Shauna was a high school and collegiate athlete and did triathlon to stay in shape after college, and more recently stopped competing. That's quite different from Lisa, who may have never been very athletic at all, and picked it up as part of her. So it may be picking up or putting down of endurance sport, depending on what you've done up to the midlife crisis that you're feeling, right? Because I was not athletic until I actually got into my 30s. You know, and so given that, you know, I kind of picked it up around midlife where other people are like, Okay, I've done enough, I've swam I biked, I've run everywhere. You know, I have a friend of mine right now who's done Kona twice that, you know, she retired at her last Kona, and she turned 42. And she's done because she wants to do something different. You know, all of that. I think that shifting at midlife may determine whether people pick up endurance sport or put it down or, or even change roles within endurance sport, you know, so there's so many different options for it, maybe some people say, I don't want to compete anymore. I just want to coach now or whatever it may be, or may I want to work with youth now, because I don't want to compete anymore. But they're still they have a touch point. But it's just different. It's very different.

Yeah, that's a really great point you're making around whether you choose to engage in sport based on kind of these external pressures, or whether those external pressures affect you differently, because you've been doing sport for so long, right? And that and then also, so then if you're in a midlife, in your midlife, and you might be experiencing some crises type feelings, right? And you decide to pull back from sport, is that is that real, quote unquote, real in the sense that it's what you really want to do? Or it's really these feelings around midlife, and you're kind of direction that's leading you to do that. And then what are the consequences for women who stepped back from sport, right? Because of this culture that we live in? Where if you don't if you're not active, therefore, you must be unhealthy?

Hmm. And the OSI now, you got me going in another direction, Lisa, about you know, if you're not active, then therefore you must be unhealthy. I think that's exacerbated even more depending on what body type you have. And so you know, when you're thinking about, you know, let's say you have someone who doesn't fit the stereotypical triathlete body, and they take a one year break, for whatever reasons, then all of a sudden, this person is overweight, obese, morbidly obese, etc. When it's like, no, they're just choosing not to stay fit in that way, there's more than one way to stay fit, then in sport. You can do it in lots of different ways. Or we, you know, we see people do CrossFit or there's, you know, so many different things to pull from. I'm even thinking about a friend of mine, who used to be about ballerina, did triathlon for many years, and then went back to teaching dance is her method of staying fit. There's just so many ways to do it. I'm wondering if we are creating a one size fit all response to very unique midlife crises? Like the solution is not going to be the same for everybody here. And so it would be smart for us to create like a laundry list of things to choose from, and whichever one floats your boat, go for it. But it's just yeah, it's it's unique. And I think it's going to depend on all of those multiple identities even figure that out. What makes you really happy in the moment, you know, maybe just walking your dog makes you happy right now and that's okay, depending on the backdrop that you're in.

So what does it mean? Do you think then for endurance sports, in, you know, marketing kind of a business development perspective around targeting individuals who might be going through this transition? Who might not be your typical, so not your white dude, going through this transition? Given what we mentioned earlier around, there isn't necessarily a universal range for the quote unquote, midlife crisis, because midlife based on your identities and these environmental, social, cultural factors, economic factors looks different. So do you think that means that endurance sport organizations can't really mock, it shouldn't really mock it to this group of people? Because it's such an amorphous group based on? No one size fits all? I mean, what do you think about that?

Oh, that's such a good question. Because, you know, part of me initially thinks that it's a little predatory. Because it feels very much like and Lisa, you know, where I'm coming from, because I've had this conversation with you before, where either someone, DNS is arrays or DNF, or race. And before they can even get home and unload their bike and untie their shoes. They've already gotten the email saying, Hey, we know you didn't have a great day. Maybe you should go ahead and register for next year. And it's like, wait a minute, I haven't even processed What the hell just happened to me today. So I think it can go predatory in some ways. But then too, I think it can be, I just would hope that it would be presented as an option rather than a, you're nobody unless you do this. Right. And and that's part of what I've, I don't think I've necessarily had a midlife crisis I've had a lot of life changes happened in the last couple of years. And one of those things that have changed for me was, I used to think, Okay, you're, you're nobody in the insurance world unless you eventually become an Ironman, or eventually do this distance, or this particular race, or Alcatraz, or whichever race. And I turn that corner where I said, I still want to do and I think I'm in a healthier place around it. Yeah, I still want to do it. But if I never do it, that doesn't make me less of a person. It doesn't make me less athletic. It doesn't make me less worthy of being a triathlete in any shape or form. It's something that would be a cherry on top, not the cake itself. And so if I do it one day, wonderful, if I don't do it, I'll live. And that was a completely different mindset change. And, you know, I think some of that needs to happen versus endurance sport, preying on the emotional fragility of people. In this timeframe, you know, I think, you know, midlife can be an emotionally fragile time, definitely now during a pandemic, where people have lost so many friends, family loved ones, maybe even rekindling friendships with people after having to be a part. I think we're all emotionally fragile in different ways. I don't think we should play on that. You know, I don't think we should take that lightly. Let me put it that way.

That is such a great point. Like, that is such a great point, Shauna in terms of the X it's exploitative, right, so we know so clearly, there's this somewhat ill defined midlife crisis. And we know that in a midlife crisis, people tend to spend money that have it, right, whether that's on an Ironman race or a car or something else. And we know that sport is sometimes folded into that because of all those cultural pressure pressures, particularly for women, but also for folks of other genders in terms of ageing and fitness and such. And so then endurance sports organizations or sports organizations broadly, engaging with that as a predatory exploitative technique, which they may not be framing as such, right? Because they might be thinking it's a market they could capitalize on but realize ethics, what are the ethics of doing that? Right, right, right up against the bottom line in terms of days, it's kind of like thinking about diversity and inclusion, and how do we engage more women and more folks of color and more folks with disabilities in certain sports, and then mark and then talking to businesses about that it's a good business prospect. Right, like, market available to you that you're not tapping into, excuse me, and then thinking about, you know, this could make you money.

Right, right. And

that has been the trajectory right. That has been how many of us have had to articulate the reason to think about marketing and engaging with communities that don't that aren't male and white and able bodied? Because that's kind of what organizations have historically heard. But there's something fundamentally wrong about that, I suppose, right?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cuz if it's the only reason why you're doing this, that you're going to expand your market, etc, if that's the only reason why you're doing it, I think it's predatory. You know, I think that's very predatory. And I think you know, so I found this link, I'll share it with you on life hack that talks about the signs of midlife crisis. And they have this list. And, for me, this is where it gets interesting, because every single sign on the list has also been noted as a sign of the challenges that many of us have felt as a result of the pandemic. And so now my question is, how do you know the difference between a midlife crisis and Pandemic responses, given that this is the first time most of us living have have gone through a pandemic? So things like mood swings, depression, anxiety, sleeplessness, or oversleeping, having an obsession with appearances, many of us because some of us have been in yoga pants for two years now, you know, for whatever reasons, right? increase consumption of drugs or alcohol, feeling stuck in a rut, thoughts of death or dying. So suicidal ideation for some, many of those have been identified by mental health professionals, Lisa and I are not mental health professionals. Let me put the caveat there. But many of those have been identified as mental health professionals as part of what's been folded into most people's responses to the pandemic. And so now my question is, you know, I don't want the flippant, non helpful response of this too shall pass. Because I've heard that before, even when I was in not so great places. I've heard that before. And it wasn't very helpful. And I also would love to know, should we respond to this? Very broadly? Because any, and everyone on the planet has been touched by the pandemic, you know, how do we wrap the whole globe in mental health support right now? Like, how do we do that? We can't just tell everybody to go register for a race right now. And you'll be happy. Not saying that. But I think there's something to the fact that those symptoms are similar, like almost exactly the same on that list. That's and then, yeah, how do we going back to your point on how we target those folks? Or if we even should target them?

Yeah. And then there's also an alignment there around depression. Right. So because I think the the experience endemic certainly could have precipitated depression in the clinical sense. But the experience of the pandemic itself is a thing, right. So it's not necessarily depression. So you've got the experience of the pandemic, and there's kind of fatigue and loss. There's a nurse that I'm not thinking of, and then you've got depression, anxiety, and midlife crisis. And it seems like what you're seeing is all of those symptoms are very fluid. And so how do you even determine outside of a mental health professional who may also not be effective at determining it? Right, because there is this ship now, various shades of blue, I'm going to say and not gray. So I think that that's an important point for us to think about.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, so I think we, you know, when we first started with this conversation, y'all, we were kind of like, you know, this is interesting, let's talk about this tongue in cheek knowing that, obviously, we want to be very respectful of everyone who is on a mental health spectrum, because at least I don't know about you. But I feel like if you're human and breathing, you're on a mental health spectrum. It's just a matter of where you are on that spectrum. And so given that we want to be respectful of that, but also know that this is a unique experience that may play itself out in endurance sport, because I don't know about you, Lisa. But before the pandemic, you're doggone right. endurance sport was my place of peace, endurance sport was a safe haven to not have to think about certain things. Especially think I've shared this with you before Lisa. So my youngest son when he was born, almost eight years ago, he was in NICU at the very same time that my grandfather passed away, which really served as kind of a father to me a father figure to me. So I spent the first year and a half of Kendricks life After my grandfather's passing those workouts and races were the couple of hours of peace and happiness I had out of the 20 for each day, and I clung to it. And so I'm just imagining now, I don't feel that way now. But I'm imagining people who are going through a tough time or a dark time, may want to use it for that. And so how do we make space for folks to use endurance sport in a healthy manner without the endurance sport community preying on that? Mm hmm. I don't have an answer. Lisa, I have no idea how to answer that question.

I don't know. And I feel like my, you know, midlife crisis if indeed that what it is, is I'm kind of like, I want to do something different. I'm tired of doing the same things. But then I also have historically always been tired of doing the same things. So like, one of the pieces of working in higher education that I never liked was the academic year, and it was just on repeat, right. And so it was ultimately same, largely the same structure over and over and over again, and you had some capacity to tweak it, but it was pretty much the same thing. And I've never really enjoyed that kind of relentlessly, the same environment. So part of me is like, is that just is that just me? Is that just a thing that I have that I'm now you know, 11 years old, and I don't want to do triathlon anymore? Or not really a patient of this midlife flailing feeling that I'm having? Or is it none of the above? Right? And there's very little out there related to women. And how to discern that, you know, outside of getting a quote unquote, counselor, and I'm very much in favor of a counselor, I mean, counseling. So absolutely.

Absolutely. But I feel like

it's a little bit more nuanced than that, too, right.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely more nuanced. And you know, what, what I appreciate about this whole conversation is that, you know, that flailing feeling, you know, it's, I appreciate that a lot of people think they're the only ones flailing when we have a lot of people flailing and a lot of us trying to figure things out. Some folks trying to rebuild their lives from scratch, because of certain reasons, or some people just trying to refashion it and figure it out. Things that you may have loved, you know, one or two years ago now, it's like it almost makes you physically sick to even think about, you know, that type of thing. You know, all of that I think is important for us to hold, you know, in ways that we can interpret and reinterpret what endurance sport looks like, for us moving forward, you know, because it it I think, Lisa, to your point of, you know, 11 years into triathlon, I'm so grateful, it doesn't have to look the same moving forward, like, you know, you could have been, you know, an Ironman for the last 10 years, but this year, you want to volunteer, volunteer with, you know, kids at a youth center who trying to figure out triathlon or teach people how to swim or, you know, whatever it is, I'm just grateful that we have enough roles within the endurance sport community that if we want to shift around, we can, if we want to exit, we can, if we want to reenter later, we can it's just, you know, there's a lot of options, but I don't want to separate that from the mental health piece that we all need to kind of hold and consider as we kind of figure it out. So I'm figuring along with you, I don't even know if midlife crisis is the right language for what I think about and deal with on a day to day but it's it is an oddity, let me put it that way. It's, it's, it's abnormal. That doesn't mean it's completely unhealthy. But it's not my usual and trying to figure out what's going to be the new usual or the new normal, or whatever this thing called life is right now, who knows?

Yeah, definitely. And I do think in dirt sports organizations could probably benefit from thinking about, in what ways are they unintentionally or intentionally exploiting people who are going through kind of an identity crisis, so to speak, or a midlife crisis? And perhaps solute rather than exploiting those individual's capacity to rationally spend money? Could they develop ways to engage folks in midlife where whatever that midlife is right in meaningful way, doesn't necessarily kind of take advantage of their emotionally fragile state I think was how you framed it. You know, like, what articles exist in endurance sport magazines related to this right and how that endurance sport and participation or not and the pressures around now, I think that might be a really good piece, parenthesis, not notch Kelly O'Meara. But I think that it's something we need to think about, particularly for women who have and non binary folks and trans folks who have largely been left out of this mid crisis, midlife crisis conversation. So like, hell yeah,

hell no. So where should we go with the hell? Yeah, in the hell nah for this week, because there's been a lot to celebrate recently. So, I would love just to highlight our Supreme Court Justice nominee Catan G. Brown Jackson. I hope I'm pronouncing her first name correctly, because I really tried. But the Honorable Judge Jackson, I am thrilled about this nomination, we'll see how this plays out with all the congressional hearings, because judge Jackson was actually confirmed for DC appellate courts, what, almost two years ago now, which I think was part of the strategy behind selecting her because, you know, the three Republicans that supported her, they're still in office. And so it would be hard to say two years later that they don't support her for this as well. But who knows what can happen? Oh, my

gosh, it's gonna be hard for them isn't one of them. Lindsey Graham, like my little political soapbox, side, this is the dude that said, you can come back to me and say that you I shouldn't be if this was a switch around. There being x number of months left in a presidential tenure and a supreme motivation comes up and we shouldn't do it. Blah, blah, blah. And then just like, totally didn't stick to what he had said. Yeah, and I think he's now saying that she's like, completely, quote unquote, leftist and radical and that doesn't mean shit, right? Like you're just using these people because it's a trigger. So I don't know. I'm like, very skeptical, but I am excited. Yay. Women's History Month. Yeah, yes, I guess. Yeah. Like, that's Yay.

I'm super excited. Well, and, you know, here's, here's my other piece, too, is that, you know, I'm hoping that they revere some of the history that precedes her, because I've heard from more than one news outlet that Judge Brown and Thurgood Marshall are the only two to possibly sit on the Supreme Court who have ever been public defenders. And that means a lot when you're talking about serving the people and being closer to the pulse of the human experience rather than further detached. So, for me the honor of having your name in the same sentences as Thurgood Marshall is profound. So we'll see. Lisa, yes, I agree with you that it should, it should be hard to rethink their stance on her. But again, we've seen a lot of stuff happen over the last one. We I still feel that we are traumatized from the politics of the United States of America from the last what, at least the last 16 years. Yeah, possibly. Yeah, that we've been through. So you're right. We should not be surprised when anything happens. However, I'm super hype. I am so excited. I am so excited. My my girlfriend, Lisa, who I just adore, she texted me and said girl, we got to talk. And she called me and we talked about the we talked about the nominee. And one of the things that we talked about specifically is that Judge Brown is blackity, black, black, black. Okay, all the way black. No offense to Vice President Harris, no offense to anyone who is fair skinned and less melanated. However, there is a statement when it comes to colorism and individuals who are selected that are undisputedly undeniably black, whether it's their skin tone, or their hair that you cannot question. There are a lot of black people that are very excited about her nomination in general. And also that we see ourselves in her. So I'll just leave it there. But we are high about this nomination. I am thrilled and excited to see what happens.

I am thrilled to and all the dads out there that are calling that it's discrimination. I have some choice words for you that I won't share on the podcast. And I've noticed Right, exactly. I have another Hell yeah, I know we're supposed to do 1 million No, but okay. US Women's Soccer that information broke at the end of February that yes, in agreement with US Soccer related to the equal pay. And so that has been a long and drawn out battle, and I am so glad they stuck with it. I'm sure it's not everything that they want and hope but it sounds like it is a pretty giant leap in the right direction.

Oh, yeah, I know. It's one of those things where obviously I know they had to make some compromises, but I'm so grateful that they stuck it out. Some of the folks that were some of the athletes excuse me that were listed in the original suit. They're not even playing anymore some of them but they did this for you know, literally, you know this is not upon at all but the game changing history of what this can do for future athletes and so I am thrilled I'm super excited you know for all even for the fence writers even for many of the men who said yeah, we want women to get equitable pay, but it has to be based on you know, the market and who's paying to see XYZ. I call bullshit on all of that. I don't care who's watching I don't give one person is watching on TV. They're doing the same job that men are doing, and in many times performing better than the men's team. Give them their money pretty much most of the time. pruney most of the time run them their coins. Get them their money. Okay, thank you very much. We are thrilled.

Thrilled. Yes. Okay, so I have a hell nah, but it's rather generic. So my okay, my hell nah is to all the naysayers against judge Catan to brown Jackson Jackson, again, the US Women's Soccer equal pay suit, and all the folks who are calling discrimination against white people or men in relation to those two things. I am like big fat to you. I don't have time for you this month.

So So Lisa, what I hear you saying is I'm using my coaching voice now. What I hear you saying is that your your seeming midlife crisis doesn't allow you to have the patience to ever even entertain the foolishness is that

good. That's a good reflection there of what I'm saying. Nice summary.

hell nah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Unfazed, a podcast produced by feisty media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon Summit.

Edited and produced by the fabulous Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at outspoken women in try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shauna thanks for listening. Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.