So Lisa, did you know that there is a

long standing history of New Year's resolutions? I mean, a

lot. I'm not talking about a couple centuries here. I'm

Year's resolutions. And I cannot say that I have been the model

of people that keep New, New Year's resolutions I've given up

on them. I've just given up over the last couple years.

Yeah, I have also given up over the last

years old, because I just assumed it was a creation of

capitalism. So apparently not, or at least not the modern kind

of industrial capitalism. So I'm curious to hear more about that.

Absolutely.

I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she

her hers.

Welcome to [un]phased a podcast to

disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the

distance.

Okay, so I do love history. And I think

there's a lot to learn. So I really want to hear some

context. So what what are, you know, what is your new knowledge

on New Year's resolutions?

Right, right. I've got a ton of new

knowledge on this, because I was looking around just thinking

about New Year's resolutions, what's the science behind it?

And more, so frankly, I wasn't even looking for new year's

resolutions I was looking for what's, what's another solution?

What's another alternative than a New Year's resolution because

I'm so bad when it comes to them. But when I started to look

up the information, it was a lot of information on the history,

the history of New Year's resolutions, and how they

day celebration, you know, and so I'm with you, I thought it

was gonna be like, you know, something having to do with

capitalism, etc. But actually, it was about planting crops. And

so during that time, ancient Babylonians wanted their crops

to flourish. And so they made all these promises, promises to

the gods that they worshipped, that they would pay their debts

and return anything that they borrowed, borrowed items, and so

forth. And their belief was if they truly kept their word to

these promises, then the gods would look favorably upon them

over the next year, their crops would grow. But the converse

could also happen. If Babylonians broke their

promises, then they would fall kind of in the bad graces of

their gods. And so I thought that was really interesting. And

so this is all pre Julius Caesar, I mean, pre January 1,

actually, which I thought was pretty cool. So we previously

had a conversation of how American the calendar is, in

particular, but this is kind of a tradition, or at least a

belief system that happened even before the calendar that we know

of today. So that's what really kind of shook me, I'm like, Oh,

my goodness, no wonder this is so ingrained, because we've been

Yeah, and it's kind of it's shifted some

right, because there's still the personal commitment, but it's

not necessarily tied to, if I do this good thing, then

prosperity, will, you know, come my way, because the gods will

see me favorably, like you don't hear people saying, I really

need to lose weight, because that's gonna make you know, Zeus

or whomever happy. Right, like that, that kind of external

connection and seems to completely have evaporated.

Absolutely. And so you're exactly right,

it's folks are making a promise to themselves. And what's

interesting is that we're not keeping our promises to

ourselves, either. So when we looked at the numbers, y'all

know, Lisa, and I love to look at the data. And what I found,

even when it came to New Year's resolutions today, the modern

version of this is that about 40% of people in the United

States set new year's resolutions. In case we have

some listeners in the UK, about 22% of folks in the UK set

resolutions, however, 80% of those who set resolutions

usually break them by the first week of February, and those that

persist it's only about 8% that are successful at all. 8%. So to

me, I'm like, Okay, this is really interesting, because

you're right, we went from this external focus of we want these

benefits to this out of this internal focus of I want this

for myself, and we're breaking our own promises to ourselves.

And so I'm thinking myself, this is kind of interesting, because

I hear a lot of people translate this into our DEI world where

they want to commit to doing something or, you know, they're

trying to make this commitment. And sometimes they don't

articulate it outwardly. Maybe they just say it to themselves.

I need to read more, I need to learn more about this or do

that. And I'm wondering, you know, what can we do to help

there be more than the quote unquote, 8% of people reaching

their DEI goals? You know, whatever that proverbial 8%? is,

we've, I think we've got some work to do here.

Yeah. And actually 40% of people making

resolutions seems low to me. But the 80 80% was it you said that

didn't follow through? That's not surprising to me. But I

actually thought we'd be closer to like 60 or 70% of people who

make some kind of resolution. You know, and it's interesting,

right? Because the DEI perspective, if we're thinking

about New Year's resolutions in that context, that is actually

that can be an internal thing, right? Because it could fall

into white savior, it could fall into being self satisfied. But

there's there is also an external connection there,

right? Whether that's reputational, or whether that is

honestly because you want, you know, the world to be a better

place not meaning to be kind of trite there. But that sort of

perspective. So it's an interesting way, how perhaps, we

could have an opportunity to reframe resolutions towards

community versus ourselves, when we're thinking about DEI, if

folks are pondering the possibilities of what might that

look like, in a manageable way, so that you don't get to the

first week of February and want to curl up under a table because

you're so depressed and frustrated, and hopeless. state

of the world.

Right. Exactly, exactly. Well, and

that's the thing we're trying to give people hope for, what can

they be successful in? Even if it's in these bite sized pieces,

right. And so one of my favorite words that I like to use in the

DEI space is micro behavior, not microwave but micro behavior. So

you know, what's, what's the smallest bit what's the

smallest, smallest effective dose, I think folks in the

medical community say, what's the smallest thing that could

inch me toward being a better ally on a day to day basis? And,

you know, I think, for me, that is more helpful, whether it's

for myself, or whether it's for helping others because the

overwhelm that comes with how daunting all of DEI fields can

make people literally shut down. Like, would you really, I think

part of that is, would you really tell someone, oh, just, I

know, you're getting up off the couch for the first time in

years, I want you to go and do a 140.6 In two weeks, like, I feel

like that's what we do to people in the right places. It's like,

Get up off the couch, you haven't walked to the mailbox in

weeks, just get up and go run a marathon. It's like, nah, that's

not how this works. And so, you know, given that I think there's

these micro behaviors, micro allyship behaviors, that we kind

of need to figure out a little loop or a system stepwise

process for people to feel like allyship was more palatable. So

it's not so overwhelming it because it does feel I mean,

even for those of us that do this to make our living, it can

feel overwhelming if you don't break things down.

Right, and not claiming the title of ally

without actually doing anything either, right? Because there is

there is this tension, though, as you're talking, I'm thinking

about it, that white people in particular men, straight people

who, you know, kind of rest on their laurels a little bit with

this is really hard, I'm just going to inch towards it, when

in some cases, there is a greater need for urgency. And,

you know, I think there's a there's a balance, and I don't

have a good answer for what that balance might be. But I would

just caution folks to don't, you know, move slowly, because you

want to digest and you want to grow, but don't move so slowly

that you know, the changes like unnoticeable,

right, there you go it It reminds me of

that slop on that that movie where it's like everyone's

waiting for them to engine, they're just sitting there. It's

like, No, you got to be in motion here. You got to be in

motion. But you're right, though it's that overwhelm can become a

defense mechanism for some. And what I find so interesting when

it comes to allyship is that I'd rather hear I'm overwhelmed

quote unquote, I'm overwhelmed from somebody that's actively

doing work, versus someone that's kind of sitting in the

driveway thinking, am I going to do this work because those forms

of overwhelm can be training, right can be a defense

mechanism. Other one can be legit. I'm tired, because I

have, I have receipts of how much I've tried to do both

internal work or external work. But hearing overwhelm from your

right from folks that haven't done anything yet. I'm like,

Okay, let's let's consider where that resistance is coming from,

is that fragility is that fear? Is it? Where's that coming from?

Yeah. So I think your point about these

micro behaviors or micro habits, right, isn't it something like

it takes six weeks for some new behavior activity or become a

habit? I think if you're looking at DEI, as a New Year's

resolution possibility, right, then what are those little

things Shauna that you would recommend that folks could start

to do to make habitual, right so that they're tangible and easy

enough that that can be integrated into a person's life

without them feeling overwhelmed?

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

And I've, I've been trying to read more and get more

motivation and ideas from other books as well. And one of the

books I've recently ordered, and I've read the first chapter so

far, but I plan to read a little bit more. But it's called "How

Actions you can take for a stronger, happier

workplace" actually. And it's written by Melinda Brianna

Eppler. And so far, it is very engaging and practical, because,

you know, I sit in theory a lot, and, and practice is where

things really happen. And one of the chapters of her her book, in

fact, the very first chapter, the first step out of, I think,

seven steps that she suggests when it comes to allyship is

when it comes to framing this work. It's a learn, unlearn,

relearn process. And that could be about any identity group, it

could be about any concept, but you have to put in your brain

something new in order to replace what may not be

accurate, or at least not complete. And that is a process

of relearning. And so she goes through this, and I just really

loved that. It seems very simple. You know, when it comes

to learn, unlearn, relearn. So, for example, you know, let's

say, James Lowen, a lot of us have read his book "Lies My

Teacher Told Me" which is quintessentially, the way in

which many of us who learned United States history in the

United States, it debunks all of that to say, I know, this is

what you learned. Much of this is either incorrect or

incomplete. So lies my teacher told me help you to learn,

unlearn, relearn, and kind of replace what you thought you

knew, right? And so that's one of my best examples of how I've

experienced in the past. And I think people should do the very

same thing. You know, I suggest and you don't have to be a PhD

to do do this. But I think people really need to be more

critical about what they learn what they have learned in the

past, who they learned it from, what lens is being used to tell

that story. All of that we need to be a little more critical

about. So I do think a lot of learning unlearning relearning

has to happen. I think that can happen with books. You know, we

get our information from a lot of different media, right, Lisa?

Say, you know, I think it can happen in a lot of different

ways. But I loved how Eppler kind of framed that learn

unlearn, relearn process, because it's cyclical, you could

just do it forever.

Yeah. And I think that it could be like

something that happened simultaneously or there could

be, it could feel more clunky than that, right. And so I'm

just trying to think of an example. But you know, when you

learn a new thing that challenges the status quo. You

are kind of unlearning the status quo at the same time and

replacing it with new information, like you said, but

if the the learning of the new thing is very troubling to you,

right? I don't know that there's an immediate integration, where

you unlearn the other things. So it's almost like the the old

faulty information sits side by side with the new information

for a period of time, right before you're then able to

discard the faulty information and completely replace it with

the new information. And I think that labor, perhaps, between the

learning and the unlearning where those two realities and

sitting next to each other is what feels tiring, emotionally

challenging, and perhaps where you might drop out of the

process, right, and might throw that resolution out the window

because it's too much.

Absolutely, absolutely, it's too much. And

you're right. It's, it kind of reminds me of, it's almost like

rewiring your brain, you know how when you're in a Word

document, and you have the document, and you thought it was

perfect, and then you're going back through, and now it's

strikeouts, and redlining and comments here and so forth. I

feel like anybody that's doing this type of di work, your brain

will end up functioning in that way, where you have this, you

know, running document of information that you thought was

truth, capital T truth. And then you find that it's either

inaccurate or incomplete. And so you're literally going through

this live process of editing and replacing, or completely

throwing out documents that aren't true. And how that's

going to be kind of off putting, you know, it's going to be off

putting, it's going to be frustrating, it's, you're going

to feel your own resistance around it. Let's put it that

way. You're going to feel your own resistance. And I know we

talked about in a previous podcast, the book Lean In, but

this is literally a time where you may need to lean into your

own resistance about having to learn unlearn and relearn

information.

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think, you know,

what we would suggest is that, you know, as a New Year's

resolution, choosing some area that you want to do that, learn,

unlearn, and relearn versus just diversity, equity and inclusion

broadly, that's going to probably push you into that

second week of February and an abandonment of your resolution.

Maybe you choose one topic that is of interest to you, right,

like, and you just explore that, because I am such a believer

that there's connections, right? So even if you're listening,

like I was listening to a podcast this morning about how

one defines Latin music, like, and the difference of opinion

between kind of musicologists is that the word and folks kind of

study it around us which music type would fall under Latin and

how Latin is both a flattener of difference among different

genres of Latin music, but has also been a really important

marker and identifier to bring kind of Latin music into the

mainstream. Right. And so yeah, you know, and I'm so I'm

thinking, yes, it's music. It's not not something that is

immediately connected to sport. But I do think about how can I

take the lesson from this podcast on music, and

categorization and language? And how could I apply that in my

sport context? And that's not something I've necessarily like,

just just clicks. But I think that there's opportunity

everywhere if you're willing to see those opportunities, right.

Mmhmm. Yeah, there's opportunity

everywhere. You know, and I think, you know, there's so many

different things that we can do as micro behaviors. You know,

I'm a big fan. I know a lot of people in the past, I've talked

about reading groups, and so forth. And there's even this

wonderful article, I'll have to link it in the show notes around

not pulling together reading groups, because they have not

seem to be helpful. They end up being patronizing, where you

have the privilege of sitting around reading about someone's

lived experience while that lived experience is death or

harm. And so what can we do as far as some of those micro

allyship behaviors? I think, yes, we need to do more than the

superficial but don't bite off more than we can chew with it.

So what are some of those small things that you would lean into

on a day to day basis that you wouldn't before? So maybe you've

been listening to your favorite podcast every day on that

commute to work? Maybe now let's switch it up where we're

listening to a podcast about something or someone's identity

group that we know nothing about. That's a micro behavior,

because you're doing the same thing in a different way, right.

Or, you know, who's in your network? Exactly. Are you

continuing to call the same people? Or do you have this

acquaintance that could develop more into collegiality or

friendship, and it's someone of a different identity group that

you could learn from and it could be mutually beneficial.

There's just so many small things and I, I remember this

podcast, ironically, this podcast that I was listening to

that talk specifically about it was something about

productivity, but it talked about habits and how we should

be habit stacking, rather than trying to overhaul our lives,

right. So let's say I'm trying to do a better job at taking a

multivitamin for example. Well, I already have a good steady

habit of brushing my teeth every morning when I wake up. So the

habit stack is brush your teeth like you usually do. And put

your multivitamin right beside your toothbrush. So you do them

both at the same time. So you're stacking a new habit on a

consistent one. And I'm wondering if that could be a way

to do this to where there may be a habit that you already have

you go on that run, or you hit the gym every morning. That's

great. And you, you know, like me, you're playing your

aggressive music because you need your aggressive music. But

what about during your cooldown, you're listening to something

informative, or you're listening to that NPR about Latin music,

or whatever it is. I just think that there's possibly a way to

stack new habits on old ones.

I absolutely love that

suggestions, habit stacking, because I'm also wondering, is

that part of the reason why people's resolutions flop?

Right, because they're trying to introduce this big new thing

into their life that doesn't attach itself to anything that

they already have. That's habitual. And so you know, if

you don't exercise, and then you're putting exercise I want

to exercise there's not a very precise goal anyway. Right, but,

that you're not attaching it to something. Right. So that's

exactly I think that's pretty amazing beyond what we're

talking about. But with the if you want to do more in Dei, you

want to learn, unlearn, and relearn, then one way to kind of

such a great idea.

Yeah, I just, it just came to my mind

how, you know, there are certain things that any, even the even

someone who was mostly inconsistent with everything

was, you still have one thing that you do every day, I don't

care if it's something as small as you have to put your glasses

on your face. But that small thing ends up being a big thing.

So yeah, we might be able to use habit stacking as a way to not

necessarily make a resolution because the converse of what

I've heard, as far as a replacement for resolutions, is

system building. So whatever your system is, whether your

system is habit stacking, or your system is an accountability

partner, whatever your system is, and so, you know, I think

micro allyship behavior can happen as long as we attach it

to something that's already stable in our lives.

So what about if I have like a monthly

lunch with a friend, or we have this thing on the calendar that

we've been doing, that we make sure that we stay in touch with

each other, I could integrate a conversation about something

that's happening in the news or something that I've read its

diversity, and inclusion related, and just add it into

that coffee or lunch conversation.

Right, exactly something that you're

already doing. And you're just adding that into the mix. So you

know, I think that's fantastic. And we've seen it happen, you

know, in workplaces, for example, where I've seen

departments where they send out this, you know, monthly

newsletter, and they've been sending out the monthly

newsletter for years, but now they're adding a link to a

really cool five minute Atlantic read on something in regards to

diversity. They're doing what they've been doing forever, but

they're making these small micro changes that stick, without over

committing them. And now, those little links that they were

placing in the newsletter have now become those quote, unquote,

watercooler conversations where people are talking, oh, Lisa,

that article you attach was really cool. The other day, I

thought about it while I was talking to my spouse or

whatever. It's, I think there's something to linking some type

of system to maintaining this cycle of learn, unlearn,

relearn.

Yeah, and I'm even thinking like, you

know, you could do this in your sporting activities, right, and

your training or your coaching, or your races you could think

about this year, I want to do X in my race communication, I am

going to add to every race communication, a fact or an

article or something that is DEI/sport related, and that is

going to go out to my 300 participants, and maybe they

clicked on it, maybe they don't, right. But that's right action

that I'm going to take, because it also establishes to kind of

onlookers that this is something you're thinking about. Right?

And that's also a good thing.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And

it's, it's kind of, again, these are very small things like let's

say, Lisa, we are going to do our ride in a certain area of

the state and we already know that that is designated Seminole

land, for example, and we want to mention that in our tri club

email. Hey, just want to give you all a heads up that we're

going to be riding around Kent Island and this is Seminole

land. For example. I know that's incorrect, y'all, but I'm giving

an example. That's something else Again, you're already doing

every weekend you announce where your ride is going to be. But

now you're getting details on where your ride is going to be.

Right, cuz you're providing that this is native indigenous land.

So, you know, they're just small things that I really, I really

want to help people and help myself to not feel overwhelmed

while continuing the work. It truly is putting, you know, one

step at a time, one foot in front of the other when it comes

to this, rather than we're not suggesting Lisa, like us to

inhale a 400 page book on the topic. Don't do that. But don't

do that just don't it's, you can get discouraged real quick. But

even with that, if you read, you know, two pages, that's that's a

micro behavior, right? So I think there's something to these

micro behaviors getting us through the New Year, because

past years. So if you're still hanging on and listening to this

podcast, you know, 60 plus episodes in we know that you're

probably in for the long haul. So I think this is how we keep

people in the work with with less fatigue and more excitement

about the work that we do.

Yeah, and I think, you know, if you are an

avid listener, then you know, you could you could habit stack.

If you are listening to us, you know, you could just add a

nother podcast on a similar topic or something different.

And, you know, roll that into your podcast listening. And, you

know, I have to put a plug in here for another podcast, which

I know is ridiculous because we are a podcast but Right, right,

Reverend, I want to share the love. I know I've like harassed

Shona to listen to this podcast, it's called this land. And I

can't remember if I've mentioned it on this one before, but it's

about native and indigenous issues. Right. And it talks a

lot about the lands. So your comment Shona about your bike

rides, which I also think is a fantastic idea. I mean, how easy

would that be to do that. And then it was, for me, I have very

little knowledge and information around native and indigenous

practices, and the ways in which, you know, colonial

settlers from the UK and the rest of Europe, you know,

treated and behave towards native and indigenous folks. I

mean, I have the big kind of, like, 30,000 foot understanding

of it. But this podcast takes like a particular case, in its

two seasons, each one and it dissects it. And it's

fascinating. And it made me so angry. But I learned a ton of

things, right. And I just folded that podcast into my dog walking

or my running. Because that's what I usually listen to. And so

I think I'm going to continue that comment next year to read

from more indigenous authors and listen to some additional

podcasts and just kind of like fold those new resolutions into

stuff that I'm already doing. So then it doesn't I don't kind of

taper off and forget that I made that promise.

Right, absolutely. I love that. I love

it. Well, for me, I've been a avid podcast listener for a long

while. And now I've been moving into more Audible books. So

listening to books a bit more, because my eyesight is fading on

me a little bit. And frankly, I have other things to be doing.

And so I can do other things while listening to books

themselves. And so I'm super excited to just continue on that

journey of I think there's a special word for people who buy

a lot of books, and then they don't read them. And that's

probably me, I pull from them like reference books. But now

with Audible, I can actually read them from cover to cover,

take note, listen while I'm doing other things. So that's my

micro habit that I've already started practicing with a couple

books, and I'm going to continue moving forward with that in

2022. But yeah, this can be done people this can be done.

It can be done. But what I think I'm going

to predict for you Shauna is what happened with me is that

you listen to a book, love it, and then you buy the copy

anyway. So then you have it twice. Because you know, the on

book book, you can actually write stuff on it.

We clearly have a problem like we

would never we can never be librarians, right, because we

wouldn't do any work. We just sit in corners reading all day.

Understood. Understood. All right, so let's jump into our

hell yeah. And our hell nah. So let me tell y'all about my Hill.

Yeah, that I am very excited about. So I saw a commercial and

I think part actually because of the algorithms. So I took my

sons to Broadway the week before Christmas to take them to see

wicked. I'd never been to Broadway before and they are 10

and seven. Obviously they had never been to Broadway either.

And so my son had seen seen Defying Gravity the the video Do

I have that on YouTube and said, Oh my God, that's so cool when I

said, you realize that's a whole play a Broadway play. And so

took them to see the play the week leading up to Christmas.

And what I noticed, the algorithm started to change on

my iPhone in regards to what ads I was getting. And one of the

ads that I got was around the casting of Wicked for another

feature that was going to be somewhere else. And that feature

actually featured a one of the witches that was in a

wheelchair, which I thought was so cool, because usually you see

them depicted, you know, up in the sky, and on a broom and so

forth. And they still did some of those elements. But when they

showed the actual poster of the play, the Wicked Witch was

actually in the wheelchair, which I thought was so profound.

And I pointed it out to my son, and he was really excited that

anyone can do anything. So I thought that was really

interesting that it kind of reframed our thoughts around

who, who plays and who plays a character and who doesn't. And

what are folks considering when they're casting roles? I just

thought that was very cool. My son wanted me to talk about it

on the podcast. And so I said I would, but I thought that was

just a really interesting twist, not in endurance sport, but

definitely an eye opener in regards to how we consider and

value the disabled community. So really cool.

Yes. And I didn't realize that she was

playing the Wicked Witch, because that's also interesting

that you have the person who uses the wheelchair playing the

Wicked Witch.

Which is why I love what No, you're

bringing up a great point, though, because I went down a

little bit of a rabbit hole trying to see if there was

another play of Wicked that also cast that Goodwitch as someone

in a wheelchair or some other disabilities still haven't found

it yet, but yeah, I thought similarly, Lisa.

Yeah, so it's definitely a Hell yeah,

with with a little asterix. Right, exactly. Exactly. Um, so

Okay, so hell no, I'm gonna like interrupt because I actually

just saw a post from you Shaunna and then went to the New York

Times. And so, podcast is going to air a few weeks from when

we're recording it, but it's, it's kind of an odd hell nah,

but it's more of a what's the word I'm looking for, like, a

moment of respect, I guess. Bell Hooks is phenomenal feminist

scholar and author died today, at 69 years old. And for me,

Bell Hooks was such an important piece of my learning and

unlearning and relearning, particularly her book "From

Margin to Center" which was one of the very first books I read

from her. And so I have used her work over and over again in my

life. She had some really important things to say around

violence against women to in addition to racism and

oppression broadly. So that is a hell nah, in the sense that it's

very sad. I'm pretty I'm pretty shocked actually, by that, and I

probably shouldn't have been looking while Shaunna was giving

her Hell yeah.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. No, that

that's a huge one. That's a huge one. And you know, I was kind of

it took my breath away when I heard that. Gloria Jean Watkins,

Bell Hooks is no longer with us. And I think what's really

important is, you know, also thinking about the people that

she was influenced by, and if she was influenced by especially

those of us in the education world, Paulo Freire. She was

definitely influenced by him James Baldwin, Sojourner Truth,

you know, a few people that she pulled from and so I'm just

really appreciative of her work. And you know, I know that we

read a lot of quotes by her etc. But I think we need to commit

ourselves that this might be some of the learn unlearn

relearn, is to commit ourselves to some of her writing as well.

One of my favorite quotes by Bill hooks talks about

resistance we talked about that a lot on this podcast people

that resist this work and she said something to the effect of

"true resistance begins when people start confronting pain

and then they want to change that pain" whether it's internal

external societal, etc and so you know, I think Lisa, we we do

our best to inch the world along to address pain through this

podcast on a regular basis. So I'm actually glad you brought up

Bell Hooks and yeah, very heartbreaking because those of

us in this industry we know that we're we build our work upon

giants and she's certainly one of those so I'm really sad about

her loss. And can recall when I first discovered her work as

well, so very sad for Bell Hooks, family loved ones and all

of us who read and learned from her without her ever knowing who

we are.

So grab a Bell Hooks book is what I would

say to you if you are unfamiliar, absolutely

beautifully, very accessible. I think she's she's written

prolifically. So there's going to be something out there for

you. So in honor of her and all the work she's done and the

change that she's pushed, I would encourage our listeners to

download from Audible or go buy at a local small business women

of color owned bookstore a copy of a Bell Hooks book.

Or like Lisa and I do both.

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Unfazed, a podcast produced by live feisty

media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon

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edited and produced by the fabulous

Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info@unphasedpodcast.com and

find us on social @tritodefi at @drgoldspeaks or

@outspokenwomenintri. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shaunna thanks for listening.

Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.